Jan 26

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The New Turtles – Trading Traders

One course I sure as hell won’t be attending (although I will admit I did apply at the start) is Mike Baghdady’s Turtle program. In my opinion I’ve realised that this is no more than a publicity stunt in order to entice more people onto his “Paid For” course. He has had more than 8,000 applicants and will select 10 people to be part of his trading program. Work out the probabilites and motivations yourself ….

If someone came to me with odds of 800:1 in order to be mentored by an ex- New York city trader, I know what my answer would be.

(original post has been edited after threat of legal action)

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Permanent link to this article: http://intradayforextrading.co.uk/2011/01/26/the-new-turtles-trading-traders-scam-mike-baghdady-is-a-bankrupt/


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  1. paul

    I just attended his price behaviour workshop.

    I saw about 15-20 people being tutored at his Training Traders offices on the 5 day Day Trading course and about 8-10 possibly on the Long / Position Trading course.

    The cost of the course(s) (only 2 on offer) is whats putting me off and the ongoing license fee of £300 for his software after the initial 30 day free offer, presumably to get one up and started. Still payable even if you start of as a virtual trader (not with real money) (??)

    Training Traders do not teach spread betting they only teach people how to trade which they hope the individual can use in which ever market they want to trade in.

    Plus points: nice helpful understanding team team, non-pushy, big name banks have used mike’s trading expertise to train their trading team in price behaviour…above issue of being bankrupt doesnt seem to be bothering these guys (chuckle!)…good facility for individuals to use their trading stations on a rental basis to go into their offices trade and then go home. Mentoring on offer (extra price, no details known personally) and also once a week on saturday afternoon Mike does a live planning session presently £15, whereby he states the trades hes going to do for the week ahead.

    Negs: no FSA accreditation so cannot offer advice, trade/ invest at your own peril, no credit terms on offer for individuals/students who want to learn but cant afford to pay the full amount of the course up front.

    Personal views: Im still sitting on the fence with this course..why? cost, and personal reasons. Also i cant say for individuals from a non-trading background whether the 5 day course on offer would be enough time to absorb Mikes 22 trading rules. Im assuming the pace would be pretty quick and would include a very steep learning curve. Where does this leave the hard up student ? Probably have to shell out more to do additional mentoring or make do with the live planning saturday broadcast programme called in-house by the term ‘piggy backing’.

    I dont discredit what Mike and his team are teaching..it is valuable. Just need to look at its present model and perhaps make it more accessible…but then again given the amounts being made maybe he doesnt have to. Good luck traders!

  2. Trader

    Why did you edit the original message? I read it and if the bankruptcy document you highlighted was real how can he threaten legal action?

    1. Les Johnston

      The reason it was removed is because what was stated was false. No other reason. He was asked to remove it after being told what was stated was false and merely lifted from somewhere else- spreadinmg the falsehood. It was not, therefore legal action was an option but in the end was not required. No other reason.

    2. Les Johnston

      The reason it was removed is because what was stated was false. We requested that it be removed and explained what was stated was false and merely lifted from somewhere else – spreading the falsehood. It was not, therefore legal action was an option but in the end was not required. No other reason.

    3. M Burke

      Honestly, Trader, I find it completely absurd that you feel justified to publish someone’s bankruptcy documents and involve that in a review about their trading skills. The dispute may have been completely personal and be related to a partnership dispute. You don’t know the ins and outs of their relation so how is it your business?

      In a U.S. legal proceeding Baghdady would only be required to refer to the company in legal dispute – not to any other company or income he has. If company A is closed off to the brink of bankrupcy, he is not required to involve company B in the dispute unless company B has also been countersued. That’s how it works in the U.S. Its a very common legal tactic recommended by lawyers to claim bankruptcy if too much money is at stake or the case is difficult to prove as you always face countersuits in a lawsuit.

      And frankly. this is fully Baghdady’s own person business and none of yours or anyone else’s. You are making him guilty of something you know nothing about. And that alone would justify legal action in my view. I certainly would sue your ass off if you tried to smear me and my business in that manner!

      Besides, why won’t you post with your real name if you have incriminating comments about someone? Isn’t that rather cowardly?

  3. Andrew Ste Marie

    Please note that everything I am about to say is based purely on my personal dealings with Training Traders.

    Although it’s demoralizing to admit, I am indeed a graduate of the Long Term trading course that Mike Baghdady and Training Traders offer. The course fee is 5000 pounds. First off what I would like you all to know is that the system which you will be taught is a near carbon copy of the Turtle Trading system that Richard Dennis taught his apprentice traders in the 1980’s. I will go so far as to say the webinars offered by Mike Baghdady on FXstreet are more comprehensive than the course itself and they are free ! It is also worth noting that the mentorship which you are supposed to receive in conjunction with your course (please refer to the FAQ on their website) is by no means a free ride. It will set you back the cost of a small business loan 7000 pounds. You need to know that included in this price is a lifetime license to his software if that is any worth to you. I have OBVIOUSLY not purchased either of these two products. I have asked for my money back after putting fourth the exact reasons I have give you here and needless to say it has turned out to be a fruitless pursuit. While I am upset that my course fee will not be refunded that’s life. This has turned out to be an expensive lesson both monetarily and emotionally. Also please understand that I`m not under the illusion that a great trading system makes a great trader. I am happy that I can now get on with things and hopefully others can learn from my mistakes. My next post will be in regards to the second “bad bet” I took with Training Traders.

    1. Andrew Hayman

      Andrew, a question out of curiosity:

      How can the system be a carbon copy of Richard Dennis’s program from the 1980’s when there was no software trading used in those days? The software used with Training Traders is new, as far as I saw in my intro, and you are taught trading rules and the trading software.

      I am not sure I understand the purpose of your argument. There are many top traders in the U.S. teaching systems which originating from someone else or finetuned from someone else’s system. Why would that matter for me if my purpose is to learn to be a successful trader?

      I went for a presentation with Anton Kreil. He teaches methods used at Goldman Sachs. Although he is very knowledgeable, he is difficult to follow and is not as good of a teacher as Mike Baghdady and his team at Training Traders (just my personal view). Does that mean I should argue that Kreil is carbon copying Goldman Sachs and his knowledge is therefore not worthwhile? Makes no sense to me. I can learn tons from Kreil and Baghdady. I’m personally grateful there are guys out there willing to share their knowledge with me and others.

      If Dennis Richards made millions on his trading system, which he may have learned from someone else, and if Kreil makes money on his techniques learned from Sachs – why would I care if the method is not invented by them?

  4. Dean Field

    @Andrew. Some interesting comments there Andrew. I did wonder what was in the course that hadnt been covered in the webinars. My own experience with them has been different.

    I have attended their trade planning sessions every week since December 2010. In that time I have learned a lot. I have found their trade setups to be on the whole reliable and mixed with a bit of patience and experience on my part increasingly so.

    I think Mike’s teaching style is good and his explanation clear – even to the point where he identifies a price, repeats it as he types it and then repeats in summary. This might seem like a small point but it saves me time setting my own charts as he is walking through the trades so I appreciate little touches like this.

    I think that the New Turtle Traders was a very clever marketing idea. Clearly there is an amount of sales attached to this but this is not that important.

    having not taken the course I have made a fair number of costly errors but I am confident that this would have happened anyway. I think if I were considering training in the future I would chose these guys or FxBootcamp who are also a sound bunch.


    1. Les Johnston

      Response to Andrew.

      You are entitled to your opinion. However, your claim that the Long Term course taught by Training Traders is “near carbon copy of the Turtle Trading system that Richard Dennis taught” is completely wrong and false and can be proven to be so.

      The fact that you seem not to have been able to do much with what you were taught may be more down to you than anything to do with what you were taught. Many others have been taught the methodology and have and are using it successfully.

      We have plenty of clients who have taken the course with us who would not agree with your comments.

      Your comment that what is offered by way of a free seminar on FXstreet is more comprehensive is just simply absurd.

      As you state -” I`m not under the illusion that a great trading system makes a great trader ”

      Perhaps trading was not for you and that is ok.

  5. John

    Mike is a very good marketing man! The whole Turtle traders was a marketing ploy to get 1000s of email addresses to market his training!. I will be very surprised if the 10 selected traders ever trade with Mike’s money.

    If they are so good at Trading why are they training? I know, because they DO NOT TRADE!.They can make far more money training desperate candidates who want a quick win.

    If i where you i would spend £5000 on reading books about trading and practise on your own.

    1. Les Johnston

      Response to John.
      John your comments are subjective and inaccuate.

      The New Turtle Traders programme is fully funded and each of the Turtles selected will trade with the company funds. FACT.

      Yes we will get a marketing spin off – this is not an issue and is a legitamate consequence of what we are doing. However, the New Turtle programme stands as we have declared it. Your opinion is not accurate.

      We do trade – everyday. FACT. Where is your evidence to say that we do not? Why make such a claim?

      Your opinion on where to spend your money is just that – your opinion. However your other comments do not have any basis in fact. If anyone reading this thread wishes additional comment or evidence then please feel free to contact me. I am at Training Traders and am a real person . I am not anonymus and can be contacted.

      1. Max

        Mr Les Johnson,

        I took the intro course at the Training Traders Academy in London, as well as 2 online webinars with Mr Baghdady. I think the training classes are very good. They are made simplified and easy to follow which is great as it makes you learn quicker. I have attended several presentations from other companies, but so far I found Mr Baghdady’s presentation the most professional in London and one of the best of many other known traders I learn from. You can tell Mr Baghdady’s knowledge is extensive. He also seems to be a great guy; down to earth and friendly.

        I am not sure why a few handful of people have chosen to criticise and exaggerate their negative reviews about Training Traders. There must be other reasons for it because the training is good. And every company utilizes marketing so nothing wrong with that.

    2. Jordan

      He may be a master marketer but he also must had been a master trader. Some of the turtles have gone on to continue trading for a living I believe?

  6. Bryant McCusher

    Mike is a very good and experienced trader, not so in his business dealings.

  7. Sean

    If you have £5000 to spend on the course and their program.

    Just spend it on the market and start trading yourself,

    either you lose or win,

    you will gain invaluable lesson.

    No need to attend this course as it is a publicity-driven scam.

    I have just attended their Free Workshop and found it very very very fishy!!!

  8. mark

    Just throw £5,000 into the markets – Sean yr crazy.

    One thing i do know, is no one out there is forging £3 notes. Every successful business is going to be subject of negativity from the Web, so i add my 10p’s worth of advice.

    I would rather spend £5,000 and be trained by someone who has experience, results, credibility and pedigree, than just give it a go myself.

    I have now sat on 2 free seminars in London by 2 different companies and i know who i’m going to give my money to. It wont be a Millionaire selling me his secrets of wealth creation, that much i do know.

    sometimes faith is spelt RISK, and im happy to take it with Mike. He appears on credible news channels globally and makes no false promises.

  9. Allen

    Those that can DO. those who cant TEACH

    1. shaun

      I don’t agree to Allen and Craig’s comments.
      A friend of mine became a millionaire from trading stocks. But he loves to teach and share his knowledge with others and did so for 10 years. Why is that wrong or somehow indicative that he is not good at trading. Isn’t that a rather narrow minded judgement?

      And advicing someone to just throw £5,000 on trading with no skills or training like Sean is doing, is simply insane.

  10. craig

    Those who can’t do, teach!

    Nuff said

  11. Max

    All trading programs utilizes publicity. Why should it be bad somehow if his company also relies on publicity? They are, however, investing £1 million on all these turtle people. Not exactly a small sum.

    However I think Baghdady is a very knowledgeable trader. His career background is very impressive too and there is no way he would be promoted as a head trader at NYBOT if he was not good at what he’s doing! New York is extremely competitive and small fries wouldn’t have a chance.
    I took a free intro with them and found it very interesting and valuable. I don’t remember who the speaker was but he was very good, and much better than any intro with other companies I have attended in London. I also attended two of Baghdady’s webinars and found him very knowledgeable.

    I wouldn’t mind doing a course except its rather expensive and I don’t think 2 days is sufficient as I’d rather be qualified with a certificate or a degree. Also, they don’t seem good on returning email inquiries which is not good. Other from that I think Baghdady is an excellent trader.

  12. mark

    Well, the operations manager Les, who has been defending mike on this blog has now left the company in fact – i think that speaks volumes.

    The only thing i have found that works is a product called Trend Signal, this has increased my profits a huge amount with no waffle or false claims

  13. marcus

    Very interesting reading these comments. I haven’t done a course at trading traders. I did, however, apply for the turtle program and made it down to the interview stage. I wasn’t selected so it’s difficult to say with any certainty as to how this company pans out.

    I wish those that were selected the very best and hope the whole journey proves to be successful. However, my lasting impression of this company is that of one that seemed just a little ‘tatty’ round the edges. More of a carboot sale that harvey nic’s. I feel that the things that give it away are things like their website, bit rough and cheap, how often they update their literature and news updates, quite infrequent. The building itself isn’t much to look at both externally or internally, and whilst I admit that this has nothing to do with the content that is on offer, in this day and age appearance is everything. Especially if you are trading a brand, (which in this case TT must be doing seeing that their prime business model focus is getting paying customers through the door).

    I do feel the desire to find new turtles is and was genuine, however, perhaps it was more a marketing stunt than anything else.

    From a trading point of view, I do not know the techniques they offer, however, to be fair, if you wanna know how to trade like a turtle, just buy the curtis faith book on amazon. It’s all laid out in the back.

    I doubt you could make money from it if you are new to trading, simply because you will not end up following the rules. Trading is about the mind, and that is perhaps what Mike Bagdady is teaching these new trainers he has. In a closed environment, they will perhaps be able to stick to the system he is pushing.

    There are many ways to trade markets, but i would caution that they are not all the same. I don’t think one size fits all, stocks aren’t bonds, bonds aren’t foreign exchange, foreign exchange isn’t futures or options.

    If TT are teaching an overall template in their courses, it will probably have a limited capability, and therefore, I wouldn’t part with 5k for this.

    I have traded foreign exchange, spot prices, not futures or fxoptions, for about 4 years now and i am now just breaking even and becoming consistent. It’s very very tough and the whole financial world is not set up to let you make money. It’s set up to make money flow from you, (the retail customer), inwards towards the interbank market.

    The only course i can recommend is a guy in south africa that runs a trading training website. It’s worth a look. He is called Dirk Du Toit. The focus is purely foreign exchange (although I think he trained originally as bond trader.

    The method he teachs is very simply to understand but involves a lot of hard work and dedication. There isn’t a free lunch. However, if you are serious about trading for a living I can honestly say this is the only consistent method I have found that has stopped money leaking from my account and given me a basis to build on.

    As for the turtles, I wish them well, but I think I was done a huge favour by not being selected.

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